Rae Chan
Identifies as gender queer
Lynne: Okay, so finish telling me about your mom.
Rae: She's always talking about how her older sisters were all beauty queens. She was the middle child. She has 3 older sisters. There's herself, her younger sister, and her brother. Out of her family, she was the darkest, and she was a tomboy. So not only was she the figurative “black sheep” for being the tomboy, but she was also the literal black sheep because she had the darkest skin. My mom really prided herself on not being super feminine. When I cut my hair some people in my life were like, "What? Why did you cut your hair so short?" My mother said, "It's okay. I did the same thing when I was young." She wore dresses and stuff, but she also could match up with the boys. That was a point of pride for her. She had the respect of the men in her life. If she told them something, they would listen, because they knew how strong she was. So even now, I feel like my mom identifies as a woman out of habit, because that's what she was taught to believe. Her dad used to joke that she he had four and a half girls, and one and a half sons. When your older siblings are beauty queens and you're being told that you're not really a boy or a girl, I'm sure that has a psychological impact.
Lynne: Do you think she felt there was something wrong with her because of that?
Rae: I feel that she had a lot of issues... She calls it middle child syndrome, where her parents would give her older siblings what they wanted, [but] when it came to her, she got the short end of the stick. My mom had to do a lot of chores. She had to do a lot of cooking. She had to get all the groceries. When she was a 2nd grader, she was already doing these things. She actually started to make money because she saw her mom crying about the fact that her older sisters didn't have enough allowance to go out with friends. My mom decided to do something to alleviate that burden on my grandmother. So, there was a lot of insecurities with that, I'm sure.
Lynne: What about her sexuality?
Rae: I feel her sexuality was complicated. I know that she jokes with my dad sometimes. I remember they were talking to me about one time when they were walking, my mom was like, "Oh, that girl is really pretty. Look at her boobs." And my dad was like, “What?”
Lynne: Do you think she could have been transgender?
Rae: I don't think my mom thinks about that. She doesn't necessarily fit what you would expect in cis-gender [people] you know, or [as a] heterosexual women...
Lynne: How do you think it affected you? Do you think that she raised you to be a different kind of girl than she was raised to be?
Rae: Well, my mom wanted me to be whoever I wanted to be, partially because she felt like she had a lot of restrictions on who she was. My culture is deeply rooted in fitting the norm. My mom was really happy because she didn't know what I was when I was in the womb. They didn't actually know what my gender or sex was at all. Every time they went for the ultrasound, I would curl up, so there was no way to tell them what my genitalia was. The doctors just assumed I was going to be a boy, because they said, “This baby's really stubborn”. When I came out and I wasn't exactly what they expected...
Lynne: So, you were just a stubborn girl.
Rae: I make jokes because it was almost an indicator of the kind of person that I would be later... My mom was really happy because in my baby pictures I was a very pretty little girl. I think my mom kind of felt fulfilled by that. The stuff she lacked she could see in her child. It does kind of bother her sometimes that I cut my hair. She wants me to grow my hair long again, because it really was soothing for her when I was considered traditionally beautiful. Even now she would prefer me to buy nice clothing. She would prefer to just get all this nice stuff for me and my siblings because she's feels old and ugly.
Lynne: Do you feel you understand her internal struggle? Or are you working on finding a space for yourself?
Rae: Well, for me, I was bullied a lot as a kid. Part of it was because of racism. I lived in a lot of predominantly white areas growing up, because I was a military kid. I was the only Asian kid around these white people who looked completely different from me. They had these traditionally beautiful features that I just didn't possess. There was a lot of bullying. I was an easy target; I was always a book smart, super academic. I heard a lot of the nerd stereotypes. I was called ugly a lot... Even my mom says that I'm a late bloomer, which is true. I don't have a very traditional type of beauty. [Later] beauty was really difficult to deal with... Feeling comfortable in my own skin was an incredibly difficult task. Only within the past two years it is something that I've come to terms with, because there was a lot of dysphoria for me. I was always told, "Oh, you’re a girl. Oh, you're so pretty. Oh, blah blah, blah..." Those people who are telling me [that], but on the flip-side, there's also all of these people who are my age, who are telling me I'm ugly, or that I don't fit the beauty norms.
Lynne: You say you’re androgynous.
Rae: I've known for a long time that I'm naturally androgynous. I remember I used to hate pulling back my hair because it made me feel like a boy. And look, even now I don't quite identify as a boy. I prefer, gender neutral terms, because the thing is, I like being handsome. I think it's funny when people mistake me as they do. When it comes down to it, I'm just more gender neutral.
Lynne: How do you think your gender dysphoria translates into your artwork?
Rae: The gender dysphoria wasn't really obvious for me for a long time. I didn't know anyone who had gender issues, and that's why college was a turning point for me. I know that in my work, I've been exploring all kinds of issues on the [gender] spectrum. It’s something I've been kind of doing subconsciously. For a long time, I’ve been dealing with internalized misogyny. That's partially a result of the bullying, because my bullies were predominantly female. It sounds a little bit cliche, but I was bullied by the cheerleading squad. The leader, her name was Brianna. She had blond hair and blue eyes. All the boys liked her. Puberty hit her early. She had boobs already, you know, and here I was, this flat-chested, Asian kid. Because I was rejected by so many of the girls around me, I turned towards the dudes as my friends. What I looked like didn't really matter as long as I could keep up with their games, as long as I could keep up with their physicality. At some point, I was a leader, because I was small. I was nimble. I could roughhouse just as easily as the boys. We used to tease the girls. They used to treat me like I was diseased. They would scream and run if I went up to them. For such a long period of time I hated the girls, and [that] didn't start to change until I ended up making friends with one of the cheerleaders, because we live in the same neighborhood. She had this realization that, "Hey, Tiffany's is actually pretty okay. " She started sticking up for me and then I started having more female friends. [But] the trauma from the rejection, by all the traditionally pretty girls was already ingrained...
Lynne: You mentioned internalized misogyny. Talk about more that.
Rae: I had a lot of internalized misogyny and I hated myself for being a woman. I hated being told I was beautiful because I didn't feel beautiful. I didn't want anyone to look at my body because I was filled with self-loathing. I'm pretty sure it's common among people who are bullied, who have a lot of self-hate. If I'm passing by reflective surfaces, I have to look at myself, because for years the idea was, if I'm going to be ugly, I'm going to be ugly on my own terms...I used to wear super baggy clothing. I didn't care about my hair. I didn't really care about how I looked... I disappeared into the background, I didn't want people to notice me because if they didn't notice me, they couldn't hurt me. If I was a fly on the wall, nobody would care. That didn't really work out, but that's what I did for a long time. I feel like in my art, as I am dealing with these issues. I'm dealing with my emotions. My art has a lot of small details that disappear, but you have to really looking order to see and understand all the meaning. I like to put a lot of little symbols, like Easter eggs, that you can notice the second or third time... That's how I deal with the world.
Rae: She's always talking about how her older sisters were all beauty queens. She was the middle child. She has 3 older sisters. There's herself, her younger sister, and her brother. Out of her family, she was the darkest, and she was a tomboy. So not only was she the figurative “black sheep” for being the tomboy, but she was also the literal black sheep because she had the darkest skin. My mom really prided herself on not being super feminine. When I cut my hair some people in my life were like, "What? Why did you cut your hair so short?" My mother said, "It's okay. I did the same thing when I was young." She wore dresses and stuff, but she also could match up with the boys. That was a point of pride for her. She had the respect of the men in her life. If she told them something, they would listen, because they knew how strong she was. So even now, I feel like my mom identifies as a woman out of habit, because that's what she was taught to believe. Her dad used to joke that she he had four and a half girls, and one and a half sons. When your older siblings are beauty queens and you're being told that you're not really a boy or a girl, I'm sure that has a psychological impact.
Lynne: Do you think she felt there was something wrong with her because of that?
Rae: I feel that she had a lot of issues... She calls it middle child syndrome, where her parents would give her older siblings what they wanted, [but] when it came to her, she got the short end of the stick. My mom had to do a lot of chores. She had to do a lot of cooking. She had to get all the groceries. When she was a 2nd grader, she was already doing these things. She actually started to make money because she saw her mom crying about the fact that her older sisters didn't have enough allowance to go out with friends. My mom decided to do something to alleviate that burden on my grandmother. So, there was a lot of insecurities with that, I'm sure.
Lynne: What about her sexuality?
Rae: I feel her sexuality was complicated. I know that she jokes with my dad sometimes. I remember they were talking to me about one time when they were walking, my mom was like, "Oh, that girl is really pretty. Look at her boobs." And my dad was like, “What?”
Lynne: Do you think she could have been transgender?
Rae: I don't think my mom thinks about that. She doesn't necessarily fit what you would expect in cis-gender [people] you know, or [as a] heterosexual women...
Lynne: How do you think it affected you? Do you think that she raised you to be a different kind of girl than she was raised to be?
Rae: Well, my mom wanted me to be whoever I wanted to be, partially because she felt like she had a lot of restrictions on who she was. My culture is deeply rooted in fitting the norm. My mom was really happy because she didn't know what I was when I was in the womb. They didn't actually know what my gender or sex was at all. Every time they went for the ultrasound, I would curl up, so there was no way to tell them what my genitalia was. The doctors just assumed I was going to be a boy, because they said, “This baby's really stubborn”. When I came out and I wasn't exactly what they expected...
Lynne: So, you were just a stubborn girl.
Rae: I make jokes because it was almost an indicator of the kind of person that I would be later... My mom was really happy because in my baby pictures I was a very pretty little girl. I think my mom kind of felt fulfilled by that. The stuff she lacked she could see in her child. It does kind of bother her sometimes that I cut my hair. She wants me to grow my hair long again, because it really was soothing for her when I was considered traditionally beautiful. Even now she would prefer me to buy nice clothing. She would prefer to just get all this nice stuff for me and my siblings because she's feels old and ugly.
Lynne: Do you feel you understand her internal struggle? Or are you working on finding a space for yourself?
Rae: Well, for me, I was bullied a lot as a kid. Part of it was because of racism. I lived in a lot of predominantly white areas growing up, because I was a military kid. I was the only Asian kid around these white people who looked completely different from me. They had these traditionally beautiful features that I just didn't possess. There was a lot of bullying. I was an easy target; I was always a book smart, super academic. I heard a lot of the nerd stereotypes. I was called ugly a lot... Even my mom says that I'm a late bloomer, which is true. I don't have a very traditional type of beauty. [Later] beauty was really difficult to deal with... Feeling comfortable in my own skin was an incredibly difficult task. Only within the past two years it is something that I've come to terms with, because there was a lot of dysphoria for me. I was always told, "Oh, you’re a girl. Oh, you're so pretty. Oh, blah blah, blah..." Those people who are telling me [that], but on the flip-side, there's also all of these people who are my age, who are telling me I'm ugly, or that I don't fit the beauty norms.
Lynne: You say you’re androgynous.
Rae: I've known for a long time that I'm naturally androgynous. I remember I used to hate pulling back my hair because it made me feel like a boy. And look, even now I don't quite identify as a boy. I prefer, gender neutral terms, because the thing is, I like being handsome. I think it's funny when people mistake me as they do. When it comes down to it, I'm just more gender neutral.
Lynne: How do you think your gender dysphoria translates into your artwork?
Rae: The gender dysphoria wasn't really obvious for me for a long time. I didn't know anyone who had gender issues, and that's why college was a turning point for me. I know that in my work, I've been exploring all kinds of issues on the [gender] spectrum. It’s something I've been kind of doing subconsciously. For a long time, I’ve been dealing with internalized misogyny. That's partially a result of the bullying, because my bullies were predominantly female. It sounds a little bit cliche, but I was bullied by the cheerleading squad. The leader, her name was Brianna. She had blond hair and blue eyes. All the boys liked her. Puberty hit her early. She had boobs already, you know, and here I was, this flat-chested, Asian kid. Because I was rejected by so many of the girls around me, I turned towards the dudes as my friends. What I looked like didn't really matter as long as I could keep up with their games, as long as I could keep up with their physicality. At some point, I was a leader, because I was small. I was nimble. I could roughhouse just as easily as the boys. We used to tease the girls. They used to treat me like I was diseased. They would scream and run if I went up to them. For such a long period of time I hated the girls, and [that] didn't start to change until I ended up making friends with one of the cheerleaders, because we live in the same neighborhood. She had this realization that, "Hey, Tiffany's is actually pretty okay. " She started sticking up for me and then I started having more female friends. [But] the trauma from the rejection, by all the traditionally pretty girls was already ingrained...
Lynne: You mentioned internalized misogyny. Talk about more that.
Rae: I had a lot of internalized misogyny and I hated myself for being a woman. I hated being told I was beautiful because I didn't feel beautiful. I didn't want anyone to look at my body because I was filled with self-loathing. I'm pretty sure it's common among people who are bullied, who have a lot of self-hate. If I'm passing by reflective surfaces, I have to look at myself, because for years the idea was, if I'm going to be ugly, I'm going to be ugly on my own terms...I used to wear super baggy clothing. I didn't care about my hair. I didn't really care about how I looked... I disappeared into the background, I didn't want people to notice me because if they didn't notice me, they couldn't hurt me. If I was a fly on the wall, nobody would care. That didn't really work out, but that's what I did for a long time. I feel like in my art, as I am dealing with these issues. I'm dealing with my emotions. My art has a lot of small details that disappear, but you have to really looking order to see and understand all the meaning. I like to put a lot of little symbols, like Easter eggs, that you can notice the second or third time... That's how I deal with the world.
Lynne: Talk more about your gender expression.
Rae: It took a lot of getting used to, because I knew that I looked kind of masculine. I wasn't really wearing makeup. It was surreal because suddenly I was walking down the street and all the dudes who would normally be eyeing me, it's like none of them saw me. Suddenly it was like I didn't exist.
Lynne: You lost that power, right?
Rae: It was uncomfortable at first, because I'd never experienced anything like that kind of invisibility that came with being perceived as masculine. It took some getting used to, honestly. [But] once I got used to it, I really appreciated it, especially because I could travel more by myself late at night... It came with a sense of safety and part of that helped me to accept who I naturally am. In more than one way, it was safe to be androgynous.
Lynne: Do you think that being in college or being around other people in the particular helped you redefine yourself?
Rae: Yes, because I always kind of believed that you go to school for the people. You go to school for the teachers. You go to school for the students, as one of my friends told me. I did pretty well with my college acceptances. When I came to Pratt, my family wasn't really there to help me with it... I chose Pratt because I knew there was a campus and I had heard that the community there was accepting. I heard that Parsons was a little bit more hoity-toity. She told me, "I visited Parsons and I visited Pratt. And Pratt is more likely to have the community that you would do better with." And I think it was a really good choice for me. I've heard some people say they wish that our school culture was a little more competitive. But I really like how Pratt isn't super competitive. Sure, it would be motivational, but at the same time, like, it also means that we don't hide things from each other. It’s not like I need to keep my secrets, you know... I was really able to make good lasting friendships. Even after we graduated, we still remain in contact because the way we coped with school. So now I still have that support group from college, even though we're hundreds of miles away now.
Lynne: The trans culture of gender markers. What do you think it's all about?
Rae: I feel like a lot of it has changed because of the Internet. We have this ability to communicate and to share idea. These are the hallmarks of a democracy. Throughout history, gender has never necessarily been just man or woman in gender roles. And so now that I can talk to friends in India, or friends in Korea, or friends in Thailand, Taiwan... Now that we have this exposure to other cultures and other histories, I feel like as a generation we're discovering that things aren't the way our parents told us they were supposed to be. There was this quote supposedly from like 600 A.D. It was in Arabic. The translation was, "Don't raise your children the way your parents raised you, because they were born for another time." I feel like we're kind of becoming free from all of these stereotypes and restrictions. We were told we could be anything we want to be, as long as it fits what they want... Now that we're all becoming adults... we're starting to see we don't have to be restricted by the rules... If we feel a certain way, it's valid. A lot of people, especially a lot of older people are now coming out, and part of it is because we're not as weird anymore. This is a thing that is actually more common than anyone ever thought. Our feelings are validated and our emotions are validated. It's not a crime anymore. If your family shuns you, you can find a new family among these communities. You can find support systems online. But there still isn't access everywhere, for everybody, and that's a shame...
Lynne: Let’s go back to your art.
Rae: The two kinds of figures that are featured in my art tend to be super masculine, or super feminine. I explore both ends of the spectrum. I envy people who have really nice muscular bodies. I love drawing them. I also love beauty, the traditional beauty, even if it's not for myself... You know, girls with long, beautiful hair. I had long hair at one point. It just it didn't feel as right as like having short hair does. It makes me uncomfortable when people automatically assume that I'm a girl when I'm not wearing any makeup and I'm not dressed femininely. I start realizing, "Hey, you know, it shouldn't be making me uncomfortable."
Lynne: Has it always made you uncomfortable?
Rae: I love the way I live my life now. Nobody should be policing that; nobody should be telling me that it's not right just because it's not the way they want to their lives... And that's just one of those things. I mean, India's recognized a third gender, culturally, for how long? So, people are starting to find that it's acceptable.
Lynne: How about your friends?
Rae: I've seen so many people bloom, absolutely bloom when they've shed those restrictions, because it is emotionally draining to try to be something that you're not. It's emotionally and physically draining. There's a lot of ingrained stuff that takes time to get over when you're trying to transition, like getting your friends to call you different gender pronouns or a different name.
Lynne: Talk to me about “Costume Play”.
Rae: It took a lot of getting used to, because I knew that I looked kind of masculine. I wasn't really wearing makeup. It was surreal because suddenly I was walking down the street and all the dudes who would normally be eyeing me, it's like none of them saw me. Suddenly it was like I didn't exist.
Lynne: You lost that power, right?
Rae: It was uncomfortable at first, because I'd never experienced anything like that kind of invisibility that came with being perceived as masculine. It took some getting used to, honestly. [But] once I got used to it, I really appreciated it, especially because I could travel more by myself late at night... It came with a sense of safety and part of that helped me to accept who I naturally am. In more than one way, it was safe to be androgynous.
Lynne: Do you think that being in college or being around other people in the particular helped you redefine yourself?
Rae: Yes, because I always kind of believed that you go to school for the people. You go to school for the teachers. You go to school for the students, as one of my friends told me. I did pretty well with my college acceptances. When I came to Pratt, my family wasn't really there to help me with it... I chose Pratt because I knew there was a campus and I had heard that the community there was accepting. I heard that Parsons was a little bit more hoity-toity. She told me, "I visited Parsons and I visited Pratt. And Pratt is more likely to have the community that you would do better with." And I think it was a really good choice for me. I've heard some people say they wish that our school culture was a little more competitive. But I really like how Pratt isn't super competitive. Sure, it would be motivational, but at the same time, like, it also means that we don't hide things from each other. It’s not like I need to keep my secrets, you know... I was really able to make good lasting friendships. Even after we graduated, we still remain in contact because the way we coped with school. So now I still have that support group from college, even though we're hundreds of miles away now.
Lynne: The trans culture of gender markers. What do you think it's all about?
Rae: I feel like a lot of it has changed because of the Internet. We have this ability to communicate and to share idea. These are the hallmarks of a democracy. Throughout history, gender has never necessarily been just man or woman in gender roles. And so now that I can talk to friends in India, or friends in Korea, or friends in Thailand, Taiwan... Now that we have this exposure to other cultures and other histories, I feel like as a generation we're discovering that things aren't the way our parents told us they were supposed to be. There was this quote supposedly from like 600 A.D. It was in Arabic. The translation was, "Don't raise your children the way your parents raised you, because they were born for another time." I feel like we're kind of becoming free from all of these stereotypes and restrictions. We were told we could be anything we want to be, as long as it fits what they want... Now that we're all becoming adults... we're starting to see we don't have to be restricted by the rules... If we feel a certain way, it's valid. A lot of people, especially a lot of older people are now coming out, and part of it is because we're not as weird anymore. This is a thing that is actually more common than anyone ever thought. Our feelings are validated and our emotions are validated. It's not a crime anymore. If your family shuns you, you can find a new family among these communities. You can find support systems online. But there still isn't access everywhere, for everybody, and that's a shame...
Lynne: Let’s go back to your art.
Rae: The two kinds of figures that are featured in my art tend to be super masculine, or super feminine. I explore both ends of the spectrum. I envy people who have really nice muscular bodies. I love drawing them. I also love beauty, the traditional beauty, even if it's not for myself... You know, girls with long, beautiful hair. I had long hair at one point. It just it didn't feel as right as like having short hair does. It makes me uncomfortable when people automatically assume that I'm a girl when I'm not wearing any makeup and I'm not dressed femininely. I start realizing, "Hey, you know, it shouldn't be making me uncomfortable."
Lynne: Has it always made you uncomfortable?
Rae: I love the way I live my life now. Nobody should be policing that; nobody should be telling me that it's not right just because it's not the way they want to their lives... And that's just one of those things. I mean, India's recognized a third gender, culturally, for how long? So, people are starting to find that it's acceptable.
Lynne: How about your friends?
Rae: I've seen so many people bloom, absolutely bloom when they've shed those restrictions, because it is emotionally draining to try to be something that you're not. It's emotionally and physically draining. There's a lot of ingrained stuff that takes time to get over when you're trying to transition, like getting your friends to call you different gender pronouns or a different name.
Lynne: Talk to me about “Costume Play”.
Rae: Something that really helped me with my gender was cosplay. I like to cosplay as male characters. That was one of the first experiences of me dressing like a boy. People seem to think I look like a boy and everyone's surprised that I'm a girl, but it's okay... People think it's cool. There is this idea that, "Hey, actually, maybe being naturally androgynous isn't bad. Maybe it's not a curse, and maybe it's actually, you know, a blessing in disguise.”
Lynne: What is your most comfortable form of dress?
Rae: I basically have three different styles. There's “I don't give a fuck”. There's when I like to present as masculine, and then there's me when I feminine present. Right now, this is one of those in-between periods. I generally like to masculine present. I've been stealing clothing from my little brother, because I fit in all of his old clothes. When I masculine present, one of my favorite things, especially when it's starting to get warmer outside, is when a dude tries to consider whether or not cat-calling me makes him gay. And for me, that's really funny. I love watching how conflicted they are. When they're like, “Are they a boy or girl?” A lot of cat-calling is about power and masculinity. It's kind of interesting. I do like feeling like I'm beautiful. Right now, I'm also trying to explore wearing makeup, but not necessarily in the traditionally feminine way. I am also really influenced by K-Pop. In K-Pop, all the dudes wear makeup in their videos, but they're still men. They can still be an object. They can still be desirable. Even if you're kind of straddling the border between masculine and feminine. For me, I kind of look like a cute boy, Asian boy. That's validating, but again, it really depends on the day, and how I feel. The first time I masculine presented, after I cut my hair short, I wore like this button- down polo shirt. It was my mom's when she was younger.
Lynne: What’s your least favorite word?
Rae: My least favorite word? I don't like the way “moist” sounds. I know that's weird...
Lynne: What sound or noise do you love?
Rae: Something that I tend to really like is the sound of soft bells.
Lynne: What is your most comfortable form of dress?
Rae: I basically have three different styles. There's “I don't give a fuck”. There's when I like to present as masculine, and then there's me when I feminine present. Right now, this is one of those in-between periods. I generally like to masculine present. I've been stealing clothing from my little brother, because I fit in all of his old clothes. When I masculine present, one of my favorite things, especially when it's starting to get warmer outside, is when a dude tries to consider whether or not cat-calling me makes him gay. And for me, that's really funny. I love watching how conflicted they are. When they're like, “Are they a boy or girl?” A lot of cat-calling is about power and masculinity. It's kind of interesting. I do like feeling like I'm beautiful. Right now, I'm also trying to explore wearing makeup, but not necessarily in the traditionally feminine way. I am also really influenced by K-Pop. In K-Pop, all the dudes wear makeup in their videos, but they're still men. They can still be an object. They can still be desirable. Even if you're kind of straddling the border between masculine and feminine. For me, I kind of look like a cute boy, Asian boy. That's validating, but again, it really depends on the day, and how I feel. The first time I masculine presented, after I cut my hair short, I wore like this button- down polo shirt. It was my mom's when she was younger.
Lynne: What’s your least favorite word?
Rae: My least favorite word? I don't like the way “moist” sounds. I know that's weird...
Lynne: What sound or noise do you love?
Rae: Something that I tend to really like is the sound of soft bells.